68: Can marriage counseling work with a narcissist?

Show Notes: Understanding Narcissism in Relationships

Host: Jason Polk, Couples Therapist & Agency Owner

Episode Overview: In this episode, Jason Polk explores the complex topic of narcissism and its impact on relationships. He breaks down what it means to be a narcissist, the origins of narcissistic behavior, and how these patterns affect both partners and families.

Key Topics Covered:

• Jason's definition of narcissism
• Quote on shame and false empowerment in the development of narcissistic traits
• How narcissists respond to feedback and accountability
• The emotional toll on partners of narcissists, including depression and loss of self
• The challenges and strategies of marriage counseling with a narcissistic partner
• The importance of leverage and motivation for change in therapy
• Practical advice for partners, including setting boundaries and reclaiming your voice

Resources Mentioned:

• PDF on functional psychological boundaries 

Takeaways:

• Change is possible, but it requires motivation and structure
• Partners have more influence than they may realize
• Sometimes, the work is about reclaiming your own needs and sense of self

Connect with Jason Polk: For more support or to learn about therapy options, reach out to Jason and his team of RLT therapists.

Jason's agencies: 

Colorado Relationship Recovery

Real Therapists Group (insurance-based practice)

Transcript

0:00

Okay, I'm doing it. I am making a podcast with the popular word that gets thrown around a lot, and that is narcissism or narcissist. But first I'm going to introduce the show. Welcome everyone. This is solving disconnection and creating connected relationships for couples and parents. My name is Jason Polk, and I've worked this exclusively with couples as a therapist and coach for over 10 years. What is a narcissist? So before we dive into that, I wanna share a quote from my mentor, Terry Real, and he shares research shows that about half of all the people classified as narcissist are driven by inward shame. The other half simply think they are better than everyone else. This is due to false empowerment in childhood. If you are struggling with grandiosity issues or someone you love is. I'd ask you to take a moment and open your heart a little bit. Think of yourself or your partner as a child. They once were, no one asked to be groomed for grandiosity. It happens to them false empowerment, and they generally take it in by modeling a grandiose parent. so the purpose of sharing that is for a little bit of compassion. Now let me share my definition of a narcissist, and that is someone who generally blames other people for any issues or for their behavior, and has difficulty receiving feedback or blame due to a porous protective boundary. I'm gonna add a PDF in the show notes for you to look at the idea of functional psychological boundaries. And what I mean by a protective boundary is the ability to take in and accept feedback if it's true to them. If it is not true, a healthier slash wise response might be curiosity, for example, why does my partner see it that way? But for the narcissist, the default reaction is defensive blame. Generally, any feedback is seen as a personal attack, even if your goal is to improve things. In other words. Someone who is, we should say, defined as a narcissist, struggles to take a critical look at themselves and they lack accountability. And the phrase that I often hear is that, you know, I did that offensive behavior. I yelled and did whatever I did because you did blink. Right. I only did that because you did blank Instead of first slowing down and taking accountability, which is, oh gosh, I see how my yelling really affects you. I'm so sorry. Right. The latter. That's the healthy response. The unhealthy response is, I only yelled at you because you did blank. So in a way you deserve it. And that logic is used to justify their contemptuous behavior. The typical attitude of a narcissist is, I am right and you're wrong. Depending on how much contempt they carry or how high they are on the spectrum, that might escalate to, and you are an idiot for thinking that. So I'm right and you're wrong and you're an idiot for even thinking that. And I recall a training I attended years ago on this topic, and the trainer said The partner of a narcissist is usually depressed. And that's an interesting statement because it makes sense if you've essentially capitulated to your partner's behaviors. There's very little room for your opinions, desires and wishes. You end up existing to serve the narcissist ego, and that's understandably depressing. So what happens when a narcissist and their partner walk into marriage counseling? First, this is important to understand, is that narcissists don't typically feel bad or are in pain in the relationship. Sometimes a response is, my only problem is my partner's upset. Right? Because if we have a tendency to be grandiose or to be one up or to be better than, the thing is that feels good. the problem is the people around the narcissist are in pain, right? It is the analogy that someone goes into an elevator, lights a cigar, and everyone else arounds them, turns green, and so the narcissist is the one with the cigar in the elevator. because they don't particularly feel bad, the question is, well, why should I listen? To the marriage counselor, why do I need to change the status quo? And as a marriage counselor, my purpose is in a way to position myself between the narcissist and something they want to avoid. Perhaps it's divorce or losing access to their kids, or maybe the possibility of their partner finally being done. So essentially what it is, is leverage. We need to have something for the narcissistic partner to want to listen to us because we are pushing for something different. If they don't have it, there's no purpose in listening to us. And so the question is, as a partner, what can you do about it? If you want to do ultimatums, it depends on where you're at. If it doesn't get better, I'm out of here. And obviously with ultimatums you gotta mean it, right? Or it could be something like, Hey, I just want you to know every day that goes by that we are not doing counseling or you're not changing. I just want you to know that I'm very. What's for dinner, right? Or you know, whatever that is. But I think it's important,, if you are, if you wanna say the non narcissistic partner in the relationship, I think it'd be important to talk to someone, ideally a therapist, you know, ideally us individually on ways where you can if you wanna say, increase the leverage or increase some motivational hooks. I think that is really important. Sometimes there's positive leverage. The idea of, if you listen to me, your wife will be happier. Your kids will want to hang out with you more, right? But whatever that is, we need that motivational hook. And in therapy, that's something that therapists will explore. But here's the thing too. If there's no motivation to change, a marriage counselor can't do very much, if say the partner's not gonna leave, nothing bad's gonna happen. They're not in a significant amount of pain, then there's no reason to listen to me, the marriage counselor. And so that's important. But I also think, as a partner. Of a narcissist, you do have more influence than you think. And again, it might be helpful to brainstorm the influence you do have with a therapist. And ideally, we're trying to gently guide your partner towards seeing value in counseling and also seeing value in engaging in counseling. And I do believe if you have a tendency to be narcissistic, you can change to slow down, to be more empathetic. To practice a better boundary, but again, you have to have a reason to do so. I would say though, mayor's counseling with a narcissist, it's not usually smooth, right? There can be some bumps in the road, but in conclusion, it's not impossible. And with some structure, we are RLT therapists at our agency and we're trained to help people. Who have a tendency to be narcissistic, but change can happen. And it might be slow and imperfect. And here's another one too. Say if you're the partner of the narcissistic person, a bigger question is, what do you need besides the narcissistics willingness to change? And sometimes the work isn't about fixing the relationship at all costs. It's about reclaiming your voice, your needs. And your sense of self. And so that's important and I think that I about do it for today. Thanks for listening.