This is a very common issue for us parents. Usually, we’ve had way more sex before the arrival of our kids. How do we regain that passion and intimacy?
Janelle helps us with practical and tactical information to help us have more sex in our relationship.
She shares the analogy of a warm pot of water and concepts such as sexual brakes and accelerators.
Her website is: https://janellewashburne.com/ and she offers intensives to help you transform your relationship!
This is a very common issue for us parents. Usually, we’ve had way more sex before the arrival of our kids. How do we regain that passion and intimacy?
Janelle helps us with practical and tactical information to help us have more sex in our relationship.
She shares the analogy of a warm pot of water and concepts such as sexual brakes and accelerators.
Her website is: https://janellewashburne.com/ and she offers intensives to help you transform your relationship!
How can we have more sex? This is a very common issue for us parents. Usually we had way more sex in our relationship before the arrival of our kids. So how do we regain that passion and intimacy? That is the question. Today we are joined by Janelle Washburn. She's a friend and a colleague. She's a couples therapist, as well as a certified sex therapist. She's worked with couples for over 15 years, helping them improve their intimate connection and reunite passion in their relationship. Our conversation is centered around, Having more sex as well as what is sex therapy. She shares her approach and the simple solution is not just have more sex. Also, she'll answer the question, should we as parents schedule sex? Check it out. this is healthy relationships secrets for parents. The podcast have saves your relationship from parenthood. My mission is to help parents have a healthy relationship. And be great parents at the same time my name is jason a Polk and I've worked exclusively with couples as a therapist and coach for over nine years Janelle. I'm so glad you're here. First question. What is sex therapy?
Janelle:Sure. Yeah. Thanks for having me, Jason. It's
Jason:I'm Glad, so glad you're here. It's great you're
Janelle:you. Thank you. So sex therapy is talk therapy. With all my clients too, I tend to do some experiential exercises, but there's never any nudity or any intimate touching. But it's exploring the couple's sex life, the details of the sex life and what the issues are that they're running up against. Is it somebody's not getting the sex they want or the quantity or quality of sex they want. The other one, it's the last thing on their to-do list. They are so busy, stressed, worn out, tired at the end of the day that they just can't think about sex or physical intimacy. Sometimes there's pain. There's pain with intercourse. So there's there's so many things that affect a couple's sex life, and so we talk about those things and then we talk about how to kind of mitigate some of those issues that are coming up regarding physical intimacy, but also we look at the context of the relationship and is it the kind of relationship and emotional connection that can really keep the couple close together. And, some couples, some people and a couple, they connect through emotional intimacy. So it could be quality time together, it could be going on a bike ride. It could be sitting on the couch together, having a conversation about each of them, not the kids, not the work, not the schedule. And so that's emotional connection, spending quality time together. so when a person has that kind of need with emotional connection, when they get that, they're able to be more. Physically connected, sexually connected to their partner,
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Janelle:opens the floodgates for that sexual connection to happen. The other partner oftentimes needs that physical, sexual intimacy and connection in order to feel emotionally connected to their partner. So I think of it
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Janelle:like the cycle. That we need to keep going for there to be sexual intimacy and emotional intimacy to happen for both
Jason:Mm-hmm.
Janelle:it's not to say somebody doesn't need emotional connection if the physical connections their primary or vice versa, but we just need to keep that cycle going to have a healthy sex life and relationship.
Jason:Janell we'll add to this concept later in the podcast using the analogy of emotional intimacy is like a table to put the layers of the cake on top of, and the layers of the cake are different. Levels or degrees of physical intimacy Another common theme that comes up in my practice is Mismatched sexual desire. What about that?
Janelle:So mismatch sexual desires come in my office all the time, and that's, Part of sex therapy that I work with couples on. And it doesn't mean that the lower desire partners broken or they need to be fixed, and it doesn't mean the higher desire partner's a sex addict. People tend to polarized on that. So we wanna find a way that works for both people and getting both their needs met in a way that feels I got both of them. The I liken it to, where you'd like to go for a summer vacation. Could be Florida. Your partner might wanna go to Canada to visit their family. So one is a higher desire partner for going to Canada and one is a lower desire partner for going to Canada. It's the same kind of thing with sexual desire. So one might be a higher desire partner for sex, one might be a lower desire partner. It doesn't mean there's anything wrong in the relationship, it's just a preference. Another important piece is to think about the lower desire partner probably has more of a responsive or receptive sexual desire. And so what that means is they need to have the pot of water warm outside the bedroom,
Quick note, don't worry. The idea of a warm pot of water will be explained a little bit later.
Janelle:but they also, when they get in bed, we'll just say in bed at night. Um, They might not. Be thinking about sex right then, but as they touch and are being touched and caressed, and kissed and cherished and nurtured, then their desire comes online. But they need to be that physical arousal first for desire to come online. And I, when I talk about physical arousal, I'm not just talking about going for the has to be, all kinds of touch. We also call that outer course which happens before intercourse. Super important or in combination with outer course is very important. We don't talk about that enough. The other partner with the higher desire sex drive probably has more of a spontaneous. Sexual desire, the thought of sex or physical intimacy just boom pops in their head. And so they have the desire that just boom comes online, and then they're aroused, experienced physical arousal. So just keep those in mind. There's nothing wrong with either way. Again, they're not broken. It's just a different way the brains are wired. And so honoring where both people are coming from sexually, their sexual needs, desires and the gifts that their desires bring to their rather than pathologizing it.
Jason:Can you say more about that? The gifts?
Janelle:Yeah. So like the higher desire partner looking at them rather than God, all they ever want is sex. They just use me. I'm just, an object. We wanna think of them as, hey, they're keeping the fire going in the relationship. They're keeping this intimacy going that this. Our sexual life matters to them. This connection matters to them. And the same valuing the person who might need more emotional connection and maybe the lower desire partner, honoring that they're listening to their body. They might be overwhelmed with stress and chores and kids, and how can I as the higher desire partner? Lower their stress level, how can I do more to cultivate the kind of relationship, the kind of emotional connection that they're needing?
Jason:The. Partner who values physical connection more A way for them to look at it is if they are stressed, what can I do to take things off their plate? Instead of oh my God, you need to have more desire. So more of that stance instead of.
Janelle:What's wrong with broken. None of my ever partners had a sexual problem
Jason:Oh yeah. Yeah.
Janelle:That's like poison.
Jason:That's normally not the best line to throw out there.
Janelle:No, exactly.
Jason:Yeah. And then what would you say then, one thing, the partner who maybe values emotional connection can do, on their side?
Janelle:Yeah. To make sure that they're valuing that. Yeah, their partner does wanna keep the alive and sexy and that this is important for the health of their relationship in general, and the health, actually the health of the family system. If the parents are healthy and emotionally and physically connected, then the kids are gonna live in a happier family home. And lifestyle. So there's value to that. And so I think there's also like appreciation for each other's perspective, understanding each other's perspective, coming at it from compassion and appreciation.
Jason:This brings us to a question. Does the partner who values sexual connection and physical connection more, need to go first in terms of initiating emotional connection
Janelle:In the couples I work with, like a heterosexual couple, or it could be an a LGBTQ couple, but the one that needs the emotional connection, if they give their partner sex when when they don't want to, all kinds of problems happen.
Jason:Yeah.
Janelle:It creates a resentment. It can even create pelvic floor pain and all kinds of pelvic Pelvic issues. This can lead to resentment on both sides. So I do like to start with let's create a context where emotional connection can be more present. I love the five love languages.
Jason:Me too.
Janelle:you too. Okay, good. But knowing how your partner likes to be loved, and giving them what they need. And that helps with the emotional connection and the physical connection. So do they need quality time? Do they need physical touch? Do they need words of affirmation? Do they need acts of service? Do they need gifts? Giving your partner what they need is critical and crucial for helping, one sex life and emotional life Intimacy on both sides.
Jason:If you want to have more sex in your relationship. Look at your relationship as a pot of water Janelle explains why.
Janelle:so I use the analogy of a pot of water for couples and how to get things going in the intimate arena. So if you think about a pot that you're gonna fill up maybe to warm up for maybe making pasta or something, you get water out of the tap. It's usually cool to temped. Not a lot of heat there. You put it on the stove. You turn on the stove, and it slowly warms up to boiling. I think of that as an analogy for a relationship. So if a couple isn't talking, isn't communicating, isn't touching each other at all, isn't flirting, isn't even having fun, that pot of water's gonna be pretty cool as an analogy for the relationship, right? But if we turn up the heat on the pot of water, that would be like turning up the heat in your relationship. So it could be a little flirtation, it could be hugging from behind when you're in the kitchen and the person who's cooking, not saying, leave me alone. I'm cooking. It's gonna burn. Turn towards your partner, turn around, give them a hug. Those kind of things, they're so critical. Having fun together as a couple, as a family. With other friends together as a couple and alone too with your own friends. But all that can start warming the pot of water, going to bed together, turning off your devices, paying attention to not falling in the habit of television. Every night after the kids go to bed, turning towards each other, talking about, Hey, how are we doing? What can I do to help support you feeling more loved in this relationship? Those kind of conversations get the water warmer, as well as giving each other their love language so that then when there is more intimate touching, and I'm not talking about a genital grab unless that's what you like but getting the pot warmer and warmer Going to bed together, touching, caressing, deeper kissing those kind of things that will warm the pot of water where it gets closer to boiling, which I consider boiling some sort of sexual intimacy. And by the way, sexual intimacy doesn't always have to be what we call penis vagina intercourse. It doesn't have to be intercourse, it can be all kinds of things on your sexual menu that a couple can explore. But we have to get that water, to speak. That relationship from cool to warm to boiling.
Jason:I really like that analogy cuz you can't just go straight to boiling if you too are ice cold. But I like the idea things you can do to warm up the water. And you mentioned the rough summary just turning towards each other. Flirting, joking, having fun. You mentioned. I really liked that idea because, from my perspective, I think we can overcomplicate sex and feel free if I'm if you don't agree with what I'm saying and I one place to start, it's the relationship and have it feel better.
Janelle:Yes. Absolutely. Absolutely. And taking the seriousness out of sexual intimacy that, oh my God, we have to do this, we have to do that. We both have to orgasm at the same time. And there have to be fireworks and angels singing. It's not like that. It can be, Sexual intimacy, physical intimacy can be so awkward and feel weird, and there's sights and sounds and smells that we might not have been anticipating were going to happen. But just rolling with it and just enjoying the sense of pleasure. Emily Naski talks about pleasure is the measure. And if you're both having fun, it feels good. You're enjoying being together, of course, in the bedroom and out of the bedroom. That's the measure. That's what we at. So we don't want pressure, we don't want performance, we just want pleasure. Does it feel good? Is it enjoyable?
Jason:Yeah. Pleasure is the measure. I like that.
What if a couple is not having sex, but it's not that big of an issue for them. Can you speak on that?
Janelle:If the couple feels good about where their sex life is and their intimacy, and also the overall health of their relationship, not just sex I think it's fine. If they're feeling good about it, that's great. I don't want them to lose the connection, like sexual connection or physical connection, because sometimes I wonder, or sometimes I do see that parents get too focused on the kids. And that's their whole life and they lose that intimate bond. And then their kid, goes off on their own graduates college and they look at each other and say, who are you? I don't even know So sex physical intimacy is a good way to keep that connection going. And I believe there's been studies that have shown that if there is a sexual connection, it does keep a relationship healthier and feeling more connected. You need that emotional connection as well to get
Jason:Yeah. Yeah. So when should we go to sex therapy?
Janelle:I think a lot of therapists, like I, I know you and that keep themselves educated on. A level around sexual intimacy in couples and intimacy. And so you don't have to be necessarily a sex therapist. You can give your clients a lot of information like permission giving just to talk about sex. Most therapists and even sex therapists don't bring it up. And if we don't bring it up, our clients usually don't bring it up. So just permission giving that our clients know that they can talk to us about sex, and then giving them some limited information and resources that you might have at your fingertips. Giving them some suggestions like some of the ones we talked about today, but then when those suggestions and ideas really don't seem to be getting. Getting them where they want. If they do want a more vibrant sex life want more frequency or better quality sex life, then's a good time to refer them to a sex myself.
Jason:Janelle your couples intensives are well-known in the Denver area. Can you talk a little bit about those? What are they about what happens?
Janelle:So people come to me for intensives for so many reasons. Sometimes it's like premarital, therapy. We wanna make sure we've covered everything before we get married, or we've got. Some glitches with our sex life or communication and we just wanna, dive into it. And actually, an intensive is six hours. If we just do the one day plus I offer, follow ups after that or two day intensive if they'd like to do that. But couples come in and. We just do a deep dive. We get so much done in that one day versus, 50 minutes twice a month, and for some folks, they don't have the time in their schedule or they travel or they're too busy. They just wanna take a day off of work and let's just dive in and. And I think of it as excavating. Let's just excavate what's been going on in the relationship. Let's work through it. Let's process it, let's heal it. And we're to the other side in one day and we've created changes and helped them closer than ever before. I can tell you without breaking confidentiality, that one of the couples I worked with, one was in, they really wanted to make the relationship work, but the partner was like I can't say that I wanna make this work, and that's what I'm here to get clarity on. Do I wanna stay married or not? And by the end of the morning, through some exercises, through some heartfelt conversations that partner that wasn't so sure they wanted to stay in the relationship, did a complete 180, changed their mind. Felt more in love with her partner ever before had total clarity. Yes, my partner gets me, I, they wanna be better, I wanna be better. Let's do this, let's dive in. I'm in the relationship and that was just in the morning half of the intensive. So it was just a beautiful transformation to watch this couple and how through the intensive we were able to make immediate progress.
Jason:Yeah. That's so great. We come back to the theme of breaking the ideas of what's normal and what's right. And also here, Janelle talks about focusing on the solutions instead of the problems
Janelle:Each person comes to a relationship with different past experiences different relationship experiences, different sexual experiences, and yes, let's work on this as a team. Nobody's broken or sex addict necessarily but let's talk about how can we work on this together collaboratively. Instead of focusing on the problem Let's focus on solutions. What are ways we can look at this differently? And instead of complaints, what are your requests that you have of your partner? And then also taking personal responsibility for this is what I wanna do differently. This is where I fallen short in our relationship. I wanna do something differently. I wanna be there for you more. I wanna show you I love you. And you know the other thing too about. I'm thinking about the lower desire partner wants to show their higher desire partner, that they still love them, even if they don't wanna be, don't wanna have intercourse that day or night that they can offer an alternative. So they might say, my stomach's upset after dinner, but I would love to cuddle, or I would love to pleasure you. What would you like? So they offer alternatives either for that moment or can we have a rain check for tomorrow night or tomorrow afternoon when the kids are at a play date. And then that person who asked for the rain check, they're the ones that need to initiate for the time they select and not make the high desire partner feel like they have to beg connection.
Jason:Yeah, for sure. So this is an assumption, so feel free to correct this, the lower desire partner generally. It does want to convey that the relationship is important. Of course, assuming they both wanna be together. But maybe, they're not proactive in that?
Janelle:Absolutely absolutely. And I think for the lower partner sexual intimacy is usually the last thing on their to-do list. They're so busy, they're multitasking, they've got dishes to do, they've got Work to do. All those things. And they're not thinking about sexual or physical intimacy with their partner. So that's one thing I work on couples with is how can we create a more intimate, sexy ish environment,
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Janelle:so we can put the chores away, do them together, work collaboratively, do the dishes together, put the kids together. To bed together so we're not completely exhausted at the end of the night. Let's work on this together.
Jason:Janelle shares an important concept. Coined by Esther Perel. A famous couples, therapist and author, and also by Emily Nagoski. Who wrote the book come as you are, which is a really good book. But this is a really really important part of our conversation
Janelle:what hits your sexual breaks brakes, and what hits your accelerator. And so we need to take our foot off the brakes. If we're gonna be able to hit the sexual accelerator. So things that hit the brakes are things like a messy house, a messy bedroom, too many chores arguments in their relationship. Family drama can affect that. Kids who might have special needs that are taking up a lot of the parents' time and attention. So how can we brainstorm with the clients and the clients as teams? How can we take things off the plate And and Then we're able to, along, along with that, but more so after we lift off the brakes, hit the accelerator. So thinking sexy thoughts, noticing having sex on the brain. Some of my clients, I'm a little embarrassed to say it, but what they found helpful is reading romance
Jason:Mm, Yeah.
Janelle:Surprised, surprised me, but also maybe watching a sexy movie. Doesn't have to be porn, but something that has a a connecting element. I know some of my clients like the show the series Outlander, And and there's parts in there that are very connecting and intimate, so some of them like to do that. Another thing is noticing when you're most drawn to your partner. So when do you. Feel, see your partner in a different way, in a different light? Is it when they're at a party laughing and talking with their friends? Is it when they're tending to the kids and drawing them a bath or telling them a bedtime story? Is it when they're kind to your parents? Is it when they're. Mowing the yard is,
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Janelle:looking for times in ways when you are, when you do feel drawn to your partner. And if people are too busy to notice when they're drawn to their partner, they need to slow down and notice. Notice
Jason:Wow. I like that. If too busy to notice your partner need to slow down and notice them. I really like that. I love how you explain that. You mentioned the idea of time. Sometimes, I assume you hear couples with kids, we don't have time for this. We're so exhausted after we put our kids down. I just want to be on my phone and play Candy Crush.
Janelle:Yes,
Jason:So what do you say to that?
Janelle:I think that's okay. We just don't want it to be a nightly habit, so looking at the couples sex goals, intimacy goals, how often would they like to be intimate? Because I hear couples say all the time, We are just too busy But is that really it? Because they're not too busy to go to the gym, they're not too busy to go out drinking with friends or going to a movie. All those are important, but really, if you think about it, for most couples, they want to have sex once or twice a week. And And I heard on a podcast the other day, sex only lasts five minutes for a lot of couples. I would, so can you spare five minutes once or twice a week to be intimate with your Obviously it takes more than gotta get the pot of water warm. But but also, I would love it to take 20 minutes to an hour. Could they do that? Maybe once a week and have something shorter another time of the week? Could one person experience pleasure in the others? The giver I. There can be some give and take in that way too, but realistically I think people do have the time and instead of watching television, which they always find time to do, or Candy Crush on their phone. Instead, I encourage them at least a couple times a week to turn towards their partner, relax with their partner, give each other a back rub, a foot rub go to bed early and cuddle. I think cuddling in bed and going to together are couple of the biggest things that couples. Could do and often don't do. go to bed together, even if you're exhausted and just cuddle. Just hold each other and if one person gets too hot, then they can roll over after five minutes and
Jason:yeah, for sure. No, I think that was great. You know what I'm hearing you say, a theme is that there are so many different ways to go about having more sex If couples are intentional and on the same page, or we can say collaborative
Janelle:Yes. Collaborative and they make it a
Jason:And then make it a priority. I really, it's kinda like you were saying, in a way you are like a guide, if you do want I can help you get there.
Janelle:Absolutely. I, it's possible. It's possible. It doesn't mean your sex life is broken. It doesn't mean always gonna be this way. It's not. There's solutions and instead of focusing on the problem and what's not working, let's think about how can make it work for both of you.
Jason:You mentioned this thing I've been thinking about and that is instead of blaming my partner if only they would do blank, then our relationship would be awesome. But you mentioned this earlier, this idea of personal responsibility. This is
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Jason:a philosophical question and I'm putting you on the spot, but Why is that so hard for us? Why is it so hard for me to first look at, okay, what can I do on my side of the seesaw? The making sure I can get more of blank.
Janelle:Yes. I don't know if it's human or what it is, the way we're wired, maybe. Yes. But it's it's your fault. But it is a paradigm shift, isn't To wait, what's my part? What am I doing here? I think about attachment styles, and I'm sure you've talked about podcast, but, usually the avoidant partner and the anxiously attached partner find each other I think of that a lot.
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Janelle:If my avoidant partner just came close to me, would just talk to me, everything would be fine. The cycle they get into is then the anxiously attached partner starts criticizing and starts, why don't you ever do this? Why don't you ever do that? And then what happens to the avoidant partner? They disappear even more. So it's the cycle couples get caught in, and so helping them shift that cycle instead of Yeah. That blaming each other and what they do wrong. We wanna create a culture of appreciation, appreciating and looking for what your partner does, right? Looking for the good and praising the other person for it, thanking them for it. We get more of what we see. We get more of what we look for. And so that's why it's so important, I think, to appreciate your partner and share those appreciations. And then I think it also creates a softer, gentler relationship where we're not gonna blame the other one, and it's safer. It's safe enough relationship. That I can say, Hey, I'm really not happy the way I raised my voice at you the other day, and I'm gonna work on that. I'm not proud of myself and I'm really disappointed in myself, and I just want you to know I'm sorry, and I'm gonna work on that.
Jason:Janelle, you mentioned the word safety, I assume. That there needs to be a degree of safety to talk about sex.
Janelle:Yes. And also, and I think it goes back to that not blaming other one and creating this soft, respectful, gentle, kind, compassionate relationship.
Jason:Yeah.
Janelle:Another analogy is the three layer cake and or three layer wedding cake. And it starts with the first layer are called hugs and kisses. The second layer is called making out behaviors, and the third layer is more sexual intimacy. And so we wanna build on each layer of that cake. But here's the thing. That cake has to sit on some sort of table, right?
Jason:Ahhh
Janelle:And that's the foundation of the relationship. And so that's where we need safety. That's where we need love, that's where we need connection, emotional connection. We need respect. We need trust, we need love. So I love that foundation of the cake. And then working our way up so that we can get to the. The sexual intimacy part.
Jason:Janelle, you gave me some consultation one time, and every now and then I'll use that analogy you shared with the cake.
Here's a question that is sometimes debated in our various couples therapists circles.
Janelle:Some people wonder about should we schedule sex or, oh God, that's so unromantic to have to schedule it like we're penciling in on our calendars. And Esther Perel talks about anything that was spontaneous in your relationship sexually has already probably happened. At least with initially initiating sex. That's super important to think about that it's okay to have sexy Sundays. And okay, I'm gonna shave my legs or take a shower or whatever before we go to bed on Sunday. And maybe Sunday could be you go to bed early. And that means let's just go play. Let's see what happens. That's so critical and so important just to carve out that time. And it doesn't always have to be at night. It could be when the kids are to play date. Let's do have a spontaneous Sexual experience during that time. That can be really fun and neat too. But I think it's okay to schedule it. And then just also having dates where the two of you get out as a couple as often as you can. I know with kids it's hard and babysitters or grandparents watching the kids, but getting out as often as you can. Just as a couple. And guess what, when you go out, don't talk about the kids. Don't talk about work. talk. Talk about how are we doing, how how are we doing? How are you feeling? How could I be a better partner to you? I think those are so important to have those conversations with each other. And when you were dating it, sex wasn't really spontaneous either you had a, a planned date, right? You planned a date, a time, maybe where you were gonna meet or where you were gonna go for dinner. There was maybe the assumption you were gonna have sex or you were gonna go to each other's apartment or home. You're probably gonna have sex. We need to. Reinvigorate that part of our relationship. I think that that, yeah, you planned it back then you made plans that this could happen and let's do the same now as adults.
Jason:I think if I were to kinda summarize this kind of like your message in a way it's, if you're stuck, there's hope.
Janelle:Yes. Oh my gosh. Absolutely. And I'll carry that hope for them until they can. Catch it.
Jason:Yeah.
Janelle:And that's the beauty of the intensives. They come out feeling hopeful, not in a 50 minute session, oh my God, we just went through the same fight. We just had this week, this the fight of the week. But they come out of the intensives feeling hopeful and having experienced something different in our time do a lot of experiential with couples and they experience something different. They have. More of an emotional connection, not just tools and intellectual understanding, but they feel more of an emotional with their partner. And that's part of what I help foster.
Jason:That's so cool. How do people find out about your, about you and your intensives?
Janelle:Yeah, thanks for asking. They can find JanelleWashburne.com and that's spelled J a N E l l E. Washburn is W A S H B U R N e.com.
Jason:Okay. Great. I'll definitely put that link in the show notes. Janelle, this has been super informative and obviously, we know each other, but it's always a joy connecting with you and talking to you about this stuff. So thank you so much. Thank
Janelle:Thank you Jason. It's great to connect with you and to be able to chat about this. I appreciate the time.
Jason:Awesome. Thank you.
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