14: Interview with Jamie Wetzel

Interview with Jamie Wetzel, a parent educator and consultant. 

How to reach Jamie: 

 Website: Get “Five Questions That Will Help You End Your Power Struggles With Your Strong-Willed Child at:  www.jaimewetzel.com 

 Instagram: jaime.wetzel

Transcript

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That's why I've developed this passion for really helping to support others who both work with children who have really strong personalities and caregivers and parents who daily live with children, because I just think that they are such a gift in so many ways, but they can be really, really challenging on a day in day out basis.
Welcome to The Healthy Relationship secrets prepares podcast, saving your relationship from parenthood. So the question is, how can we be great parents and have an amazing relationship at the same time? That's the question. And this podcast will provide the answers. All right, well, Jamie went so welcome. I am so excited for this interview. Because Jamie is a parent, educator and consultant. And she's going to help us manage how do we deal as parents? How do we deal I don't know that's the right word. But how do we manage, survive if we have a strong willed kid? So Jamie, thank you so much for being here. I'm really excited.
Thanks, Jason. I've been really looking forward to the discussion. And and I think manage and deal are just fine words to use. Because parenting can be really tricky at times.
Yeah, for sure. For sure. Well, Jamie, if you can, is there anything that I missed an introduction that you would like to share? Maybe how you got into this work? And and what you do would love to hear it? Yeah.
So I've worked with children as long as I can remember. And, you know, I think the universe gives you gifts that you sometimes didn't ask for. But you look back, and you're so appreciative of them. But I've worked with kids in a number of capacities. And then I became a clinical psychologist and ended up working at an institution that works with really some of the most extreme and severe behavior problems, often for kids that just have horrific trauma histories. And so in doing that, I developed a new layer of understanding. And then I was about nine and a half years ago, gifted with my own strong willed child. So from that, I got another layer of understanding. And so that's why I've developed this passion for really helping to support others who both work with children who have really strong personalities and caregivers and parents who daily live with children, because I just think that they are such a gift in so many ways, but they can be really, really challenging on a day in day out basis.
Yeah, yeah. Does that mean like how you highlighted such a gift, but really challenging? Yeah, yeah. Jamie, can you define for the audience your definition of strong willed kids, or you just mentioned strong personalities, but if you can speak on about that,
yeah, some people call them spirited children. The thing I always want to avoid are some of those diagnostic labels like defiant, oppositional defiant, because it can be easy. They do sometimes meet those diagnostic category requirements. But these are the kids that if you look at them in their daily lives, everything is up for negotiation, there is nothing you ask of them that they don't come back to you and ask for just one more or five more minutes, they're always holding out for just a little more. They really can be argumentative, sometimes just for the sake of being argumentative. These are the kids that really get a lot of stimulation out of trying to get control in even in times where if we gave them control, it would be just way too much for them. They're just too little to have that amount of control. But they still have an inclination to want to try to get it in the moment. Their kids who have a lot of trouble typically with transitions, springing things on them surprises, or things that they just don't have the resources to manage. Well, they feel really caught off guard, and it also puts them back on their heels in terms of that control that they're looking for. And then oh, they're also the kids that can just parents will often say like their mood change on a dime it we went from having a great time to all of a sudden this really intense emotional shift that to everybody else feels like it comes out of nowhere.
Yeah, I'm ignorant on this issue. So some of what you're explained. It seems like all kids, or at least my four year old daughter has, right? Yeah, no, I mean, I guess like, is it? I don't know the differentiation. What's normal? What's too much of this? I don't know if there's a question there or if I'm making any sense.
No, I'm so glad you brought that up. Because I think that's part of what I would work with every person on that that I'm working with is to understand really a lot of this is very typical, it is not at all uncommon for children of preschool age to be figuring out the world, and what is their role in it? And what can they have a say about and where do they have to bend a little bit, temperament and personality development is different for each kid. So some, some kids are just generally a little bit more, they want to please everybody. So they're a little more easygoing. But it is absolutely a normal process for every kid to to continue to grow and figure out where it is in the world that they can have to they can make their mark. So while I say that a lot of these are behaviors of strong willed kids, it ends up being about degree and how difficult it can be to manage and sort of pull it back into that range of typical common, the strong willed kids will really, parents will just say, it's the end of the day, and I'm exhausted, it isn't just what we had a meltdown at the grocery store about ice cream bars, it is that that meltdown was brought up later by the child, and like their whole day changed, you know, it's just a it's almost like a more all encompassing outlook.
Yeah. Okay, I got it. And you, you mentioned the idea of control. And you said to, even if we gave them too much control, it would be overwhelming. But is that kind of one of the big factors into Okay, oh, my gosh, maybe my kid does fall in strong wheeled category of the idea of control,
I do think control is an important thing to look at. Because this is where a lot of the work can be done preemptively where where you're really trying to get out in front of the power struggles and the behavioral problems. You're, essentially, I talk with parents a lot about like, Where can we make deposits in the bank, so that when we have to make a withdrawal later, there's plenty of reserve there. So the deposits are things like, let your kid pick out in the morning, whether they want the blue shirt or the green shirt, let your kid go grocery shopping with you and choose their one favorite cereal that they want to have that week, give them as many opportunities as you can to do that. But also sit with them and play and let them lead. Oh, we're playing Princess tea party today. And you know, Dad, you're gonna wear the pink boa and the crown, and you just let them lead and have total control of the play. Because that's age appropriate, so that later on when you have to do what we all have to do as parents and say, No, you're not allowed to ride your bike alone down the road by yourself, because you're only five. That's where then we have some trust and some things in the bank that we can fall back on. And the child has a bit more tolerance for some of those, because they don't feel like we're always trying to take control. And we're always being the boss of everything.
Yeah. So in a way, that's the kind of a simple intervention, right? Give them some degree of control, and also some degree of attachment. And I took a course my wife and I, and it was positive parenting solutions. And the instructor there, Amy, she talked about belonging and significance. Right. And her idea was, I think what you're talking about in regard to the deposits, was to do at least 10 minutes a day of uninterrupted play with your kid, and they're leading, not you. And also the idea of options. We learned a lot like with options, do you want the pink cup or the green cup. But some of that stuff has gone a long way for us, like long way in a good way. So I think that's a little bit of what you're just another way of going about what you're what you're talking about.
Yeah, and I would say the other piece of that is when you do have a kid who you feel like you're battling with frequently, taking that 10 or 15 minutes to just really put your phone away, give them your undivided attention. It reminds you why you probably had children and it gives you that emotional, it fills your cup emotionally to where you stop you make yourself stop and pause and really take in that moment in time and think about how cute they are. And you know, there's just there's no there's no expectations in that moment. And it's nice for both parent and child.
Yeah, no like I on that. Jimmy I agree. 100% is like we can get into that. That ego state right that this cares about play not concerned about Facebook likes or whatever. Yeah. But I really liked how you said it is good for us to Yeah,
it's interesting and you know, funny you know, if you don't really think about it, but as we grow up, we lose that ability for many of us. as parents to, to really just let the play be what the play is, and I'll hear parents, if I'm helping them and watching them play with their child, there will be things like, you know, the kid will just say, well, we're going to build the house purple. And the parent will say, like, well, houses aren't how when's the last time you've seen a purple house? And so it's there, they're engaging. So that's good, I wouldn't criticize that. But the child, it can sort of be a little bit deflating in terms of like, well, here's another instance, where I'm being reined back into these adult expectations that houses aren't purple.
Yeah, I got it. Well, you mentioned when you work with parents professionally, and you coach them is there. And I assume, parents may be thinking that thinking this, but like a criteria, which is Oh, my gosh, we need some help with our kid.
Um, I think that asking for help is never ever problematic. I would advise parents always to start with some form of an evaluation. I think the thing that concerns me, especially in the realm of less formal forms of seeking help, is that sometimes you'll see on social media or other places, parents that describe a behavior, and then another parent will chime in and say, well, we finally got a diagnosis of this, and the psychiatrists put my child on this, and it's been amazing and great, maybe that's true for that family down process, and to not make the assumption that your child's behavior is coming from the same route as that other child's behavior, that the same Avenue is going to be a good fit for your family. So I think really slow walking the process of of getting an outside party involved to somebody who's really just neutral and objective and can give you some, some good solid advice, but also walk you through your particular child, through your eyes to understand what what might be the reasons for the behavior? Is it out of the the sort of range of norm? And then where do you go from there?
Yeah, got it. Got it? Well, Jamie, I'm sure that you have seen how this can affect the relationship between the parents having a strong willed child? Can you speak a little bit about that? And do you coach parents on having a healthy relationship between the two of them,
I don't typically do a lot of coaching with individuals together as a couple. Some of the self study materials certainly would be valuable to go through together. But I think many of the principles would be those for the individual and how they think about their child. But a couple could certainly come together and do those separately and compare notes, I think it's really helpful to be on the same page. And I while I don't specialize in that, I would highly recommend for a couple that's finding that their relationship is really starting to entirely revolve around the needs of the one child in their family. That is something that I couldn't encourage people enough to get an outside party to help you both evaluate your own childhood and where why you have developed the different parenting styles that you have, but then helping you find some compromise, because ultimately, that's going to be really difficult for the whole family if you have parents on a very different page with how to respond to a kid like this.
Yeah. Well, and you mentioned earlier, kind of like your personal story. And you mentioned that, you know, it's been a gift and a challenge for you. And I assumed in raising a strong willed child yourself. Do you have any? And this is a very broad question. I guess, how did you do it? Right. Do you have any like any advice? I know, this is a very, very big question. But if you could speak on your personal experience, that would be great. Yeah.
So one of the things I would say to parents is that time does improve some factors for these children, their brains continue to grow and mature, and that helps you along the way. But I would say the same caution with that is that not to let things go hoping they'll quote unquote, grow out of it. Because you don't want to let problems compound in a way that then you have a really big child with really out of control behaviors, and it becomes a really serious issue in the home. So that being said, I would share one of the things that I like to work with parents on is considering the caregivers that they select for their children, because we had a very negative experience with an in home daycare provider, which was really difficult for my son, but then on the heels of that we got him into a preschool that was amazingly supportive. We had an occupational therapist involved, they worked with that individual implemented strategies. And really we could just have very open dialogue with them about behavioral needs and what was working at home and what was working in the preschool. So in that sense, you having him in care was just so vital, because I think if we had kept him home until kindergarten, we would have been really struggling with school comes with all sorts of new expectations for getting along with peers and waiting and say, staying in your seat and all of those things. So if he had not had the opportunity to work on those, in a really supportive preschool, it would have been, it probably would have been a really tough couple first couple of years in school. So so that is one piece of advice I would share and help parents to think about, really making sure to carefully vet their care providers for that reason. And also getting an outside person, like you were mentioning, my husband and I did that we were initially seeking to get some assistance for my son some treatment for him individually. But that person ended up recommending exactly what I would recommend to most parents of young children, which is like we can make the most change for your kid if we help you help your child, because you're with them all day long. So we worked with her and it was really very helpful. We were able to look at our different parenting styles, our reasons for them, which were valid and each in their own way. And then really to develop strategies for these are my quote unquote, weak areas or places that are kind of where I'm more likely to lose my cool, how do I bring you into those moments? How do I help you? And I see that you're struggling a little bit? How do we really partner on this in a way that we're giving our child consistent messages but supporting each other at the same time?
Yeah, that's great. I really like the idea of talking about different parenting styles, where that comes from, of course, you know, trained as therapists were all about that, and then hugely beneficial, and provides great insight. And then talking about addressing the weak areas, being aware of them. But you also mentioned something to which from a relationship. Coach perspective sounds great. It's how can we help each other? When we're triggered? or Windows weak areas come up? That That sounds great.
Yeah, there's times I think, with parenting, or people that take care of children, where we somewhere get the message that we're not supposed to say the kids on my nerves today or, or for care providers. You know, there's just some kids, it's just not a good fit. So I think giving people permission to say, whatever has been going on in my life today, my reserves are low and my frustration tolerance, my patients are low, and I just need somebody to step in and support me so that I don't lose it. lose my cool and then regret it later. Which is what mattered. Yeah, it's hard. It's hard to ask for help you feel like you know, I love kids. I had my own kids, I really shouldn't just say, gosh, they're on my nerves today, or this thing that they do is what always bothers me. You feel like you're supposed to shoulder all of it.
Yeah, I mean, that's just reflecting is like, where did that come from? Right. That idea that we had to do everything you mentioned losing your cool, you know, especially your black background, working with kids. And working with couples, I always urge couples don't have crazy loud arguments in front of your kids. And I don't know if you had like any. I guess the right word is this understanding of overtime? How parents arguing can affect kids. Can you speak a little bit about that? And I know this could be a big can of worms. Oh gosh, we're talking about trauma Now Jason, geez. You can you can pass to
this can be the trickiest thing because especially when, when two parents might might really disagree on on either ends of the spectrum. If you have a parent who's really coming from a more old school, children should fall in line and listen and do what they're told immediately. And then another that's at the other end that is a little bit more of that positive parenting model where it's giving choices and we're helping children you know, experience their human potential and all of those things. That can be a really wide divide. And so I think that takes some really intensive individual work for those people to kind of explore why they're living maybe at such extremes and even their their perhaps disappointment about this is what our fantasy was like about about having children about being parents and this is now disappointing that we feel like we're we're failing or we're not living Up to that idealistic American dream of what it's like to have the 2.5 kids in the white picket fence. So I think that really having those opportunities to develop some of those strategies, but to really be careful, you know, of course, unless there's some sort of safety risk in the moment, but having the child see both parents as a united front, even if one of them isn't handling it, maybe the quote unquote best way is going to make the child feel much safer than if they feel like the adults who are in charge of taking care of me can't even get together and figure this out. So the child feels out of control, they see the adults being out of control, and there's just really no safety net there. So my advice to parents is, as best as you can, is to let whoever has taken the lead, finish out, maybe have some little nonverbal cues, if you're you need to signal to your partner like like this is going too far or something, you know, tapping on the nose, or whatever you need to do. But then make sure to circle back later and say, Can we talk about how to handle a situation like whatever happened last Tuesday differently, just to make sure it doesn't blow up, pass? And then you know, you're just destined to repeat it again, make sure that you have a chance to circle back and work on it together.
Yeah, definitely. And, you know, and I hear this from from different people, do you recommend even having kind of a repair conversation in front of the kids like, Hey, Mom, I'm really sorry about that. I lost my cool for a sec.
Yeah, I mean, I think that's a relief to a lot of parents to know that they can do that. And that it is, in fact, really showing and modeling really held the behavior to your child who may have reluctance to own up to some of their mistakes is that you're showing them like even the grown ups, make mistakes sometimes. And that doesn't mean you you soften on a consequence, you might have given you know, if your child did something inappropriate, they still need to understand that they are responsible for their behavior as well. But if you in in the process of giving that consequence, you yell, or you say something you regret, it's always a healthy thing to come back and say, I've been thinking about what happened yesterday. And while I still don't agree, I still need you to get off the computer. When I tell you, it's time for bed. I don't need to talk in such a loud tone of voice or I'm really going to work on making sure that I'm not yelling when I let you know that or whatever it is. You're you're regretting.
Right. Yeah. Great. Well, and going back to a personal question, again, I wanted to ask you this, because you know, my wife and I doing a program together a parenting program, in a way it is brought us together. Because we're talking about it, we come down and gameplan is kind of like, hey, we did this right. We didn't do this right. And it actually brought us together, I assume that you had the same experience, kind of explain going through this with your husband?
Yeah, it's, you know, you asked the question about whether I work with couples. And really to circle back to that, too. I mean, this is where I think it can be so valuable to be doing both. We know from therapy, we often do that couples who are in therapy together for whatever reason might, it might be recommended that they go do their individual work. But I think with parenting, it can really be the same thing. There's an important self exploration that can occur. I personally need a lot of different strategies in my my own life to manage my stresses I use a lot of I lift weights, and I do things with nutrition, and I have artistic interests. My husband doesn't have any of those. And that's fine. He has his own. But so for each of us to be able to feel supported on many levels, personally and as parents, but then to come together in a platform to talk specifically about our child and our parenting. Like I think we only bring all of that individual reservoir we have to those discussions so that we can have really productive work in that space too.
Yeah, great. Great. Well, I know I'm bouncing all over the place, but one of the ask you, and then maybe this is a personal concept consultation. But I feel like my wife and I, we have a good plan. This some degree, I guess I would say the idea of setting limits. But if we have a rule that's no milk before dinner for our four and a half year old, and we say yeah, she's like, Hey, Doc, have some milk. Yeah, no milk before dinner, and boom, tantrum. Brian, you know, we basically can't do anything. You know, our approach is the Hey, Josie, what's up? Hey, I can give you water before Don't worry, dinner is gonna be out. But also, if she's having a tantrum like that, in a way, we don't necessarily we kind of let her have it. Right? I mean, we're there. But in a way, there's so much to do. And I know I mean, I'm getting a little too nuanced, but part of it, sometimes it feels a little bit, sometimes not engaging, like we're being a little bit mean. But you know, it's like the balance of, hey, I can be here for you. But she's not very interested in that. We can give you other options, but everything she says is no. So I don't know what I'm what I'm trying to say. But maybe the right answer is works and what's compassionate for you? I don't know.
Well, I mean, what's your this is such a good example. Because I think this is real life in people's households is your you're making dinner, you've probably come home from work, you have other things that just tasks that need to be managed at that time of the day. And your child surprises you with a request or maybe doesn't if this is like a thing that she wants to talk about most days. But I think that this is what parents really do have to find that balance to navigate. And the classic parenting textbooks and things will will give you a nice strategy if all the dots line up perfectly, right, because I think you're tapping into this, the more current research, which says, timeout is not as effective as time in because children at four and a half, when she's upset that front part of her brain that helps her think about well, water is an option or dinner is only 20 minutes away like that part of her brain isn't it's barely developed at all, and she's mad about milk. So you know, you do you're finding strategies that are going to work for your family. I mean, in in, that's the kid too, I could say to a parent, well, you know, go with them to their room. And if they're tantruming, you know, maybe you sit quietly. And if her one of her favorite activities that calms her is to color, you just silently get out of coloring book and start coloring. And as she's watching you, and kind of out of the corner of her eye, maybe eventually she wanders over and decides she's going to color too. So you've given her another option, you're just sort of silently there to support. So I might say that to you. And you might say, Oh, that's great that that worked perfectly. Another parent might say, yeah, the minute I did that, she started hitting me and go now you now we have to come up with a whole new strategy, because you're not going to sit there and let the child hit you. That's not a message you want to send. So it really does highlight that like what works in your house, and what really, can we implement for you that that is going to feel good for you and your child? Yeah. Cool.
And so that's, that's what you do. That's your coaching and education. Yeah, yeah. And I
mean, that just for that example, the other thing that I think parents don't often think about is like, again, that like, how do you how do you stay out in front of the kid? Like, how do we stay two steps ahead of them? So one of the things that we work a lot on is try if you can in any way, avoid saying no. So if she says, Can I have milk? You say? Sure. You sure can in 15 minutes, when I put your dinner on the table, there will be a nice big glass of milk waiting for you. And then she might, you know, look at you and then she'll probably still get mad and wanted. The knows that so many kids?
Yeah, no, that's a great. I think I remember hearing that too. But I forgot that. I forgot that tool, right? Yeah, that's great. Because I didn't know kind of like, I don't know, the armchair neuroscientists, right. But I assume it kind of like you know, hits the amygdala. I mean, again, over time, about four and a half year olds and
lizard brain.
But hey, I'm like that. I'm going to try that. No, but or No, no, I already goofed it up. I have milk dad. Yes, we can have in 15 minutes when we sit down for dinner. Okay, well, thank you. That's one of the sad things about doing a podcast like this like awesome, like, consultation. So thank you. But you know, and also like the idea of the coloring our daughter loves coloring and is to sit down next to her color. And then say you color would it be inappropriate and she's calm down to be like, Oh, geez, dear, what, what happened there? I'm being facetious. I don't know. Do you have any advice? I mean, do you check in about it? Are you just kind of like on to the next thing and again, maybe this depends.
Um, Oh, you mean revisiting the milk at the outset about the milk? Yeah, um, I think that's such a low stakes problem. And such as she just, she just had a big feeling and she got herself under control, I would move on, if it's a situation where kids made a really poor choice, and you want to revisit, because because you want to make sure there's a lesson that is learned or your message is heard. I don't know, if you have a particularly strong, you know, position on milk before dinner to where you would want to revisit that with her, I would let her take it as a win that she's calmed herself down and move on.
Okay, perfect. Great advice. Yeah, thank you so much. But this is important, though. So in a way, it's incorrect me if I'm wrong. But it's important to have, I guess, like a framework, when, when dealing with strong willed kids, I found it I don't know if I got that, right, like, basically, kind of something to fall back on. Or we have this framework to make it so there's less power struggles and tantrums, but feel free to correct that.
Um, I do think you have to be I mean, I think you should be intentional, serious of life. But I think these kids in particular, if you don't have your own sense of how you want to manage it, it can feel as though you are just constantly drained. And that you're really setting yourself up to feel ambushed and upset by what, in some ways can can become a predictable pattern from them. So I do think you have to be careful on the other end of letting them know you have expectations and letting them even surprise you at times with how well they can manage things. And certainly, that's the lesson I've had to learn personally, as my son has moved into 789 years old. Because we did we did a lot of walking on eggshells, things that we knew would upset him. Oh, goodness, morning times. It's like that look on his face when he'd come out of bed. And you know, my, my stomach would clench like, Oh, we're in for one of those days. And so you do your best to not set them up to fail. I would know on a day like that, that that is not where I'm going to be trying to test out new limits if, if he's allowed to eat his breakfast in front of the TV. Today is not the day I'm going to try to institute we're sitting at the dinner. So being kind of wise about things like that. But also, yeah, again, just going back to that, I mean, I think really leaning on your partner is so key for having a game plan, because there are going to be areas where one or the other of you says oh, you know, I don't like my husband would do that. He would say I can take the kids to the grocery store, I don't mind that task that made me through the roof anxious if somebody was going to, you know, get upset in the grocery store, or just my son was just busy. He, you know, he'd want out of the cart, and he'd want to walk around and I just wanted to get in and get the groceries and get out. So really just owning tasks like that buttons, setting up those kinds of strategies is really, really helpful.
Yeah, that's great. But I like the idea of leaning on your partner. And I'm of the belief of, the more that you two can resource each other as parents via connection, spending time together, the better parents you'll be, and even having this open communication, and a game plan. And even going back to what you were talking about, I love this, there's a cue you did the nose, or hey, I'm getting upset. I'm getting out of my window of tolerance. I'm gonna need a little bit of help here. I think that's great. But fundamentally, you know, bigger picture is that you too, as parents are on the same page. And that that's really important.
Yeah, yeah, kids, kids sense it when there's tension between their parents. And there will be that's just part of being in a relationship with anyone. But I think the more space you can carve out to just have frequent even it as imperfect as it may be. I mean, oftentimes, my husband and I have most of our conversations as we're both driving home from work because the children aren't there. We know. We have each other's semi undivided attention. Watching the road. Yeah, but those are the times where we know we can catch 1015 minutes to talk through something that happened or I will sometimes say to him, like you're getting home before I am just a heads up. Here's what happened this morning. So you might want to avoid this topic. Or you might if he looks a little this way or that way, you know, here's why. And so just really keeping keeping each other in the loop and doing those little bits of communicating. Sometimes at the vanity in the morning, when you're both trying to get ready. It does help then when you do find that afternoon to go out to dinner together or something where you're not spending the whole time talking about the kids.
Yeah, that's great. That's great. Well, Jamie, is there there anything you'd like to add one and before that, too, I just want to say, thank you for taking the time. And thank you for the free consultation with my four and a half year old, but yeah, anything that we missed that you did, you would like to share? And if not, that's fine, too.
Um, jeez, we touched, we touched on an awful lot. I guess one of the one other message that I really try to convey is that if we look at the adults in our world, and some of whom are highly successful, they often have very strong personalities. And so if we can reframe, and think about some of these traits, as ones that will serve our kids really, really well, when they get older, that they will have strong convictions, they will be passionate, they will make a change in the world, then we just know that we have to support each other and help them you know, guide it along and nurture it, but that these these are not symptoms of a huge problem. They can actually be seeds that we can plant and grow into amazing things for them as adults.
Yeah. I love it. That's great. And, Jamie, where can people find you? You know, so people are listening. They're like, Oh, man, I want to work with Jamie. How do they go about doing that? Yeah,
I'm on Instagram at Jamie dot wet soul. And that's ja i m e and I always tell everybody what sold that is spelled like pretzel W etc. El. on Facebook. I'm at Jamie Wetzel consulting. And if you have anybody who's interested in obtaining my five questions that will help you end power struggles with your strong willed child, they can find that at Jamie weitzel.com.
Awesome. Jamie, this has been great. Thank you so much for taking the time, especially on a Saturday. So everyone, this is a Saturday. Can you took her time is thank you so much. And yeah, we'll stay in touch. I really appreciate your time.
Thank you. It's been great. Okay, great.
Take care.
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