I usually don't interview couples on those podcasts, but today I'm sharing an interview with a lovely couple. Their names are Sammy and neat. Now Sammy and Nate are natural every day, same old couple. Well, of course all couples are unique in their own way, but Sammy and Nate have a podcast called date forever. They started the podcast to learn how to have a connected and passionate relationship. Today they share what they have learned from over 190 episodes interviews with relationship experts and also over 15 years of being in an intimate relationship together. One of my mentors, Stan tack, and said something like people are naturally drawn to connected couples. And during this interview, I was definitely reminded of that. The theme of this interview is collaboration being on the same team. And also being intentional about connection. So check it out. And I know you'll be able to take some tips from this and apply them to your relationship. Welcome everyone. This is solving disconnection and creating connected relationships for a couples and parents. My name is Jason Polk, and I've worked this goofy with couples as a therapist and coach for over 10 years on this podcast. I share my experience professionally and personally, as well as those of our amazing guests. So here's the interview. Well, Sammy and Nathan, thank you so much for joining me on my podcast. And I would love just to hear, I found you two because of your podcast, but can you talk about your podcast? And first of all, I'm going to give a plug for it. It's a really cool podcast and it seems like you have a really big,, following a lot of influence. but can you talk a little bit about it? Yeah. So our show is called date forever. We've had it now for about four years. What this is all about is really about dating your, your special person forever, but also dating yourself. It's been a little bit of a, a mission of ours for the last few years. And how this really came about was that, Around the time of our fifth wedding anniversary,, we were very loved up and we were about to, basically renew our vows, because we knew how much our relationship had changed over the, the five years that we'd been married. And that seemed to be a very different space to where a lot of our friends and, people around us were in, where there was a lot of our friends that were going through, Some really bad breakups and in some cases divorce as well. And so it really kind of got us thinking about like, well, where do you learn relationship skills to keep a good relationship in a, in a great place? Rather than a lot of the advice and things like that, that are out there to try and help,, a relationship that's in a bad position, um, to get better again. So how is it that people kind of keep a good relationship fueled up, for the long term, especially if they hadn't been shown a healthy, happy, thriving blueprint at home in their childhood? Yeah, and I think that the, the trouble as well with, even having a healthy, happy, thriving relationship at home is that you don't really see what's happening behind the doors. Um, like your parents might look thriving on the surface, but like, what are they actually doing to keep their own relationship fueled up? Like you might see them go on dates every now and then, but it's really hard to, to actually know a lot of the conversations that they're even having behind closed doors. Yeah, no, I got it. But I like that. You know, where do you learn about relationships? And that's a really good question. And as you two know, I'm a couples therapist and a lot of people really haven't learned that, you know, it's almost like we piece together like different things that maybe we learned from our friends or, you know, movies, um, things like that. So obviously I think it's great that you two have that resource and that's kind of the question you're exploring. Um, Nathan, real quick, I had a question. Can you speak about, dating yourself? I mean, obviously it's clear dating your partner, but I know you mentioned that. Yeah. So, so dating yourself, I think is one of the key things that has really come out of the podcast and, um, and exploring relationships in that. It's one thing to be able to date your partner and to, kind of love up on them and learn about them and. Build deeper connections with your, your special person. But I think one of the key things that keeps coming up throughout a lot of the conversations we're having with experts is that you really need to be doing that with yourself as well. Um, having that real deep understanding of what you love and what you enjoy and actually doing those things as well. Like it's one thing to, to know that you playing guitar or something, but then actually going and doing that and spending that time with yourself. And really embracing the things that you love. But also giving yourself the, like maybe the space or the time to, to reflect and, and really spend that with yourself and getting the most out of this life, I guess. and making sure that, yeah, you're really taking the opportunity to, to embrace this life. Well, it's almost like a, like a balance. I mean, and what I make up is that you two, I assume, do a good job of this, but as what you're saying, like a balance of dating your partner and dating yourself yeah. So in,, in 2017, When we renewed our vows, we'd been married for five years, we'd seen a lot of, like, friends and people in our, like, world go through these really awful breakups. And yeah, like Nate said, in some cases, divorce. And a lot of those people, you know, we were at their wedding, and it was not a shadow of a doubt that these two were, like, Compatible and could build a really beautiful life together and then somewhere along the way, it, it didn't work out how they intended or how they first set out. but it was probably only like two years after that in about 2019, where I went through quite a large trajectory of growth personally, professionally. I crammed about 10 years worth of learning into about three years. I was in a professional capacity where I was being exposed to new ideas, um, new education, like just a whole other, way of, of learning. Growing and being and operating in the world. And, um, it sort of started to create this gap where I was growing at such a rapid rate in myself and I really liked who I was becoming, but Nath wasn't, Nath was, um, not yet on that personal, um, development journey. Um, and I think it really highlighted how much work I was doing on, on me and my relationship with myself. Which, ironically, then I realized I, I had neglected a whole part of myself and I'd end up, ended up wrapping my, a lot of my personal identity and self worth around this job and this, profession. Um, and I actually, I ended up, Resigning and quitting with no plan, um, which is another big part of how we ended up starting the podcast. But it was kind of through those couple of,, big asteroid kind of moments, in our life or observing them in, in nearby friends that the recognition that, Hey, my relationship. with myself sets the tone for every other relationship that I have., and the way that I show up in my relationship with myself is absolutely going to impact my marriage. So I think that's something that Nathan and I have been cultivating very intentionally, basically since like 2019, like onwards, we've got far more intentional about our own relationship with ourselves, our own individual, growth and personal development journeys, but also, the commitment to growing together as well. Yeah. So cool. And, maybe the part of this is a little bit jealousy, but do you feel that, uh, the podcast has helped you to be closer together? Absolutely. Yeah, we've, we've been running the show for like almost four years now. I think we're at like 180, 190 episodes, something like that. So yeah, we, we've spent at least that many hours talking with couples and experts about the tips and tricks that we use. That they found to keep her relationship fueled up. And we've got this really beautiful balance of talking with, with experts, people who know the technical who have studied, who are, you know, psychologists and specialists, um, people like yourself, Jason, who like have gone deep on learning things like attachment styles, and then share that with the world. But then we get to chat with couples about like what tactically works for them. And sometimes those things are. at the opposite end of the spectrum of what works for some people and what doesn't work for others. So yeah,, it has,, kind of been like being in couple therapy every, at least every week for the last four years. So yeah, the show has,, definitely brought us,, a lot of growth, a lot of intimacy, a lot of opportunities to have conversations and look at things from a different perspective., and yeah. learn about some of, the tools, tips, and tricks that are available. And a lot of them are free, to take care of your relationship. I've really enjoyed,, yeah, hearing the polar opposite,, approaches to relationships. Um, so an example of this is that I think this was in episodes of almost right next to each other as well. That one couple came on and said, our divorce is always on the table. Like, we choose each other and we choose each other every single day. And. If we're not choosing each other, then we should be getting divorce kind of thing. Whereas like the other couple came on and was like, no, divorce is never on the table. We're going to work through whatever, it's never an option, every challenge that comes through, we're all in together., and I can absolutely see both approaches to this as well. And What works for one couple might not work for the other, but it doesn't mean that it's wrong, it doesn't mean that it's right even, yeah, as long as you and your partner are on the same page about your approach to your relationship and what works for you, that's the key thing there. Great. Well, I mean the question that I would have for you two. Oh, yeah, by the way, I changed the name of my podcast to solving disconnection how to create more harmonious relationships and harmonious and connected relationships And so I guess the question is yeah, so what do you two do? I know that could be a huge question, right? Yeah But what we do a lot, I, I think, um, we, like we have six ingredients, I would say that, um, are like happy to share. So, um, starting at a, an annual level, every year we take one or two days, To together and intentionally plan our year. We get away from our normal environment. Um, we review the year that was and set some goals, intentions, plans, um, both individually and as a couple for the upcoming year. We check in on our values, how well we're living them. If they're still true for us., if something has changed, we talk about our, um, 10 year like vision plan. Like, where are we going? What do we want out of this big life? we check in on our lifetime goals. there's this beautiful exercise by Keith Abraham, your 100 lifetime goals. You can Google it. It's on his website. Um, so we check in on those 100 lifetime goals and figure out whether or not there's anything that we, we achieved in the last year that was on that list or anything that we're, going to prioritize achieving in the next year. Um, we do a lot of reflection, like what were the wins? What were the things that,, worked really well last year. What were the hurdles? What were the hurdles? What were the curveballs? How did we handle them? Are we happy with how they, we handled them? And sometimes it's nice to do this from the, a place of like the dust has already settled. Like it was maybe a couple of months ago or sometimes even, you know, almost 12 months ago. Um, and that you can really see what the lessons were that we learned. So those two days are great. kind of non negotiable. We've done it probably for about Maybe seven years, seven years, I think, maybe a little longer because, and that came out of,, our place where we, we had moved interstate,, away from, our, friends and family and the first year that we were living, more long distance from, those core networks, we'd ended up flying like seven or eight times to go and be it. In that location, and we'd really struggled to establish our new life. And we realized like, Hey, we need a, we need a better way of doing this. We need to get more intentional, more proactive and shift from, reactive to proactive. So yeah, that's one of the very first things that we do to set ourselves. and our relationship up for success and to thrive and gosh, the plan does not always go to plan, like, and the goals, we do not always achieve all of them, but, we get on the same page about what's important to us. and then at a, probably like a quarterly level. So as at the change of the season, um, so we generally do that at like the end of November is when we do our annual planning. So then three months later, we'll, we'll have a little like. Probably two hour sort of check in on that plan. How are we going? Have we dropped the ball on anything? Have we made the progress that we wanted to make? So like, for example, one of the things that we want to do in this next 12 months is take quite a sizable trip to Europe. So there's, you know, we need a budget. We need a plan. We need to, book some things. We need to do some research. So we can't just wait until. A couple of weeks out from the trip to do that. So we, we set some goals to,, sort of do phase one, in the first,, sort of summer season of, of 2024. So we check in quarterly on those kinds of things. and then at a monthly level, we just do a quick, fuel tank check in. we live by this idea of living a beautiful fueled up life,, that is across eight different fuel tanks. Um, so we check in on those. Would you like me to share them? Is that helpful? Please! Yes, I dig it. Yeah, cool. So we kind of realized,, that we needed a bit of, a better way to make sure that we were taking care of all areas of our life. And this is something that kind of came out, um, of the, the burnout that I had created for myself in 2019. And I did a bit of a, a retro on what had worked and what had not in the previous few years that had got me to a place where I was so depleted and so unhappy. And, um, you know, Nate, the gap between Nathan and I was quite big. Um, so we went and looked at what are the different areas of our life and how do we take care of them? What does, thriving look like in those areas? So the first tank is, we've already talked about it, is, self. So my relationship with myself sets the tone for every other relationship that I have. Tank number two, romantic relationship. Tank number three, relationships and network, tank number four, humming household, tank number five, career and business, tank number six, wealth and lifestyle, tank number seven, the world, and tank number eight, the future. So every month we just do a quick little check in on how are those tanks feeling? Is there one that's maybe higher or lower than we want it to be? Very rarely higher than we want it to be. Lower than we, lower than we want it to be. Is there a tank that's a real priority that we need? You know, that needs some attention like now. Yeah, so we do that monthly and we normally do it like over coffee. At a cafe or sometimes while we walk our dog, and then, yeah, we just have a bit of a,, relationship check in chat, yeah, about what's working, what's not. I think the key thing about these tanks is that they don't necessarily all need to be full all at the same time. Yeah., and so a lot of that monthly check in is like, maybe our, how many household Is it a, is it a two, uh, two out of five or something, but maybe that's not the priority for this month. Maybe the priority is career and business, or maybe the priority is that we've got a couple of interstate trips for weddings and things like that. So maybe our, focus area is our relationships and network for this month. So it gives us, that compass,, to guide us as to where we should be focusing our energy for the next month or for portions of the month coming up. It also helps us just like flag some logistics stuff. Like when we going on a date. Are there any birthdays coming up? Are either of us traveling for work? Have we got any concerts or gigs or events that are fixed commitments in the calendar? Things that you probably don't want to sneak up on you on Sunday night to be like, Oh, wow. That's happening this week. So that's kind of our, um, monthly. Rhythm. The next level down then is our dating practice. So, so what we do is a,, two by two by two dating practice. So what this is, is that the first two represents that we go on a date every two weeks. The second two is that we, have a night away every two months. And then the third two Well, in the original version of this,, that we saw was that you go on a holiday, like a bigger holiday every two years. but because travel and adventure and those sorts of things is, really high on our values, we actually go away for two holidays a year. so that's the two by two by two. so how this works, I in practicality is that, the date every two weeks is not like a fixed printed, like. every second Friday night kind of thing for us. The way we do it is that, I'll organize a date in the first half of a month and then Sammy will organize a date in the second half of a month. And this works really well for us because it allows us to either choose something that, like if I'm organizing a day, I can either choose something that I would really like to do and bring Sammy along to, or I can choose something as well that. But I think that Sammy might really love to do, and have that as, as a really enjoyable experience. And it really helps because, it means that we're not always, like one of us is not always playing lead and the other one just going along for the ride, but we're playing that key. Kind of great lead and support role. So we don't need to do everything ourselves if we don't want to, we normally try and keep it a bit of a surprise or like have a little teaser, but we send each other calendar invites for it. And that will normally put a little sort of teaser, like tagline, I guess, for the date. Yeah, it builds up a little bit of suspense and surprise, leading up to the date. So it's, yeah, it's really fun. It really works well for us. And it really encourages us that this is important, like our quality time with each other is important. And it does, it goes in the calendar, um, like any other appointment with a third party would. I mean, this rhythm works really well for us,, early on in our relationship. I was the,, instigator and the planner and the scheduler. I have a background in event management, so it comes pretty naturally to me. But I was kind of robbing myself of the opportunity to, to be the receiver., because I was so like, let's, let's plan it. Let's schedule it. Let's get it in the diary. Like I, you know, we live busy lives., and if we don't prioritize it, it will just fall off the bottom of the list. so this works really well for us, but yeah, like Nate said, the original version of this, like we found it on like a Reddit thread and we were like, Hey, we've been struggling to find a rhythm that works for us. Maybe we should try this on., and we've been doing this for years now. and we've got a beautiful like journal of all of Our dates, we just take a photo, um, every day and then we, we keep a log of it. So it's really quite nice to look back on and be like, Oh wow, look. And then some months we have had far more than two dates. especially if we've been on holidays, that sort of thing. Yeah. So I guess the, the second two, in that, um, In that two by two by two, like being the nights away. I think some people struggle with that or struggle to comprehend how we go away every, every two months and things like that. But six times a year. Yeah, it is only six times a year. And what we normally do is try and tack that onto. a trip that we're already taking. So if we are traveling interstate for a wedding or something like that, we'll normally just try and take. Or like the last, last week I had to be in another state on a Monday for a work commitment. So rather than me just traveling up and back on the day, we went on the Friday and Nate came with me and we got to make a bit of a weekend of it. Um, but I also respect that we're coming from the place where we don't have children. So some of the logistics here are probably a little, a little lazier for us. But I guess we just look for those opportunities to be able to, take those nights away without it being. a big standalone thing, that might be disruptive to, to our normal schedule. So then ingredient number five. Oh, sorry, Jason. Yeah. No, I was going to say, yeah. Cause I know there's a, yeah, there's a two more, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So number five, let's hear it. So ingredient number five is our weekly happy hour. So this is normally a short little chat that we have, uh, we often go out for coffee or something, and have this conversation. And this actually came from a podcast guest. You're talking about how, um, the podcast has influenced our relationship. This came from, um, uh, Harry and Tristan, which was like, In our first, in the first half of our first year, I think, Harry, I think it was a Harry, Tristan, one of them shared, this practice that they have with, their partner where they, um, and they had been sort of prescribed it, uh, by their relationship counselor, but, um, you know, it was a, an agenda of questions that really sets them up for the week. So it starts with, yeah., it's just a handful of questions, but like, starting with like,, what would you like to be appreciated for or actually giving appreciation for the other person?, we talk about the calendar, like what's going on for the next week or two,, food. How are we keeping our pantry, fridge stocked? Who's cooking? Um, what are we cooking? What night? So we normally just make a little rough menu menu for the week. and we figure out like, okay, who's going to cook on what nights if there's, if we've each got commitments, we take a look at money. So we open up our banking app and just look at like, did we spend what we thought we would? Are we on budget? Are we off budget? We've got any bigger expenses coming up. Is there any curve balls, anything like that? Yeah. I work for myself, so my income is Is variable. So sometimes we need to massage things a little bit to make sure our cash flow still works well. we talk about sex, what, what are you liking? What are you not liking? How are you feeling about your body? Anything you want to try? and it sounds like pretty clinical, but sometimes it might be like, when's our opportunity? What's this week looking like? Yeah. Especially if we're traveling or something as well. So yeah it's definitely something that we, we factor in. And then we just have a general check in, like, how was your week? Did you feel connected to me? and probably one of the most important questions that was really uncomfortable at the beginning, but now we've got a really good practice and rhythm around it is like, is there anything you would like me to apologize for? Um, is there something I've done or not done this week that really upset you? And yeah. For whatever reason, we haven't had a chance to, clear the air or perhaps even, maybe it felt like a small thing in the moment, but here I am like four or five days later still ruminating on it. Yeah, it creates a really nice container for us to like, we kind of now refer to it as like let air out of the balloon,, so that it never pops. So it's one of those things where, if you've done something once, like, it's very easy to change that habit as well, whereas if you've done something multiple times, like, and you've created a habit about it And you've never received any feedback. Yeah. It's one of those things that it becomes harder for yourself to then To then change that habit, but it also has probably irritated and frustrated your partner for a long period of time, which has then built up that resentment as well. So, so yeah, it is that really good opportunity as you said, let the air out of the balloon and yeah, just air that and nip it in the bud very early. Yeah, and then we have a bit of a chat about household management, so probably two years ago now, we implemented Eve Brodsky's, um, fair play, system. I think is probably the right word. she was a project manager, in her career. And she had her and her husband or partner, um, had a child and then was like, Whoa, there is so much going on to manage this household and this new little baby. Why is this so hard? So she went about making all of the invisible tasks of running a household really visible. So she wrote a book, the book's fantastic. and also, an accompanying deck of cards. so there's about a hundred in the deck. Um, not all cards will apply to all households. Like for us, we don't have kids. So most of the cards that relate to children,, don't relate to us. so then we, divide and conquer those cards. So we take a look at them, um, each week, like, and we swap like both of us don't like doing laundry and neither of us are particularly good at it. So that's one of the household tasks that we really don't want to sit with. One person for too long. so we tend to swap that one back and forth and same, like taking out the garbage and things like that. We, we mix it up on who's accountable for that, but it really helps us like stay transparent on. You know, what's, what's my role as your housemate? Not just as your partner, but we live together. Like, how do we keep this house moving together? and that's really quick. sometimes it shakes out a couple of to do's and you go, oh yeah, I do need to go and return that package, or I do need to, um, go and pick up that thing from dry cleaning, or I do need to book in that social thing with those friends. We say, who said, We were going to go do that, um, thing with like, or I do need to buy those tickets or whatever the task might be. Sometimes it shakes out, to do is Nath is king of maintenance. So normally it's my, I've normally, I've got a request for like, Hey, can you fix this thing that I broke during the week? Yeah. Yeah. Especially cause you're working from home full time. Yeah. Um, yeah, so that's our, that's kind of the guts of our weekly happy hour. so that's number five, and then ingredient number six, is daily, and we have a very embedded attitude of gratitude. Um, so we have a, uh, evening gratitude practice, whereas we're going to bed, it's not complicated. We just do it. Ask the question, what are you grateful for today? and we've been doing this for a long time now. I read, Sean Aker's book, The Happiness Advantage, and it blew my mind., just the idea that, success is Comes after happiness, not the other way around. Um, yeah, so we want to set, a culture of appreciating, actively appreciating what we have and each other. and it's also a really great like temperature gauge on how things are with us and how things are with us individually, because sometimes a gratitude will go away. Will flow like thick and fast, like, Oh my gosh, I'm so grateful for the bed that I've just climbed into and that we have, uh, an air fan in our bedroom or that, we live, as close to the beach as we do, or that I had beautiful nourishing food to eat today, or, Hey, how cool is it that I get to use zoom and I, you know, I can work from home. Like sometimes it's really, really easy to throw, Flow into gratitude, and more often than not, one of the things that we express gratitude for is something, about. The other person, but some days it is challenging as well. Some days he just, I'm just lying there and it's like, Oh, what am I grateful for today? Like this felt hard. This didn't work for me today. What's going on? But I guess it is then it is all about training your brain to look for the positives, out of any situation or look for the things that you may have overlooked or that you just take for granted kind of thing. So it does really, help to kind of switch your thinking and to really look for what were the positives, My day didn't go to plan, or it felt very clunky, or yeah, things just weren't working for me today. The, um, yeah, the data and the research around the power of a gratitude practice, that it literally rewires your, your brain, your reticular activating system becomes wired to look for things that you are grateful for, things that you appreciate. And I believe that what you appreciate appreciates, you get more of it. Well,, being a couples therapist and working with couples in distress. Hearing the practice you to do is very refreshing. But I want to highlight, you know, and I've been coached couples on this basic fact a lot, and that is you to need more collaboration. Don't forget that you're a team. Often people come into my practice, they're just like roommates, co parents, and they're not operating as a team. And if you slow down and remember you're on the same team that is so important. You know, I like the kind of intersection you two have done, date your partner, date yourself, which I, think date yourself also means your own personal growth and you're doing your own stuff and your own gratitude practice. But I had a question when you two were sharing this, And maybe you can't parse it out, but how much does your, do you two feel your relationship affects your happiness, your personal happiness. And maybe you, maybe there's no way to like, yeah, you know, it's not a math problem, but just curious. I, I'm of the belief and it's probably why it's tank number two. When I went through that list of eight, you know, starting with, with me, I got to show up and be accountable for my energy and what I bring to this space. But over the course of our relationship, we got together in Seven? Yeah. Um, and then married in 2012, but when I look over our like 15 plus, year long relationship, the times when our relationship has been in hardship or in, turbulence or in There's probably only really been one, one sort of chapter of what felt like distress. But I was not my best in any other area of my life. I couldn't show up as a good employee. I couldn't show up as a good business owner. I couldn't show up as, a good friend, a good daughter. I couldn't show up for my own, my own goals. Like it's like. being sick. Like when you're sick, you really can't do anything outside of yourself. You just have to be sick., and that's kind of how I think about taking care of our relationship. Some people will hear those six things that we do and be like, well, that's a lot. That's over. structured, that's over regulated, that's over processed or whatever, over cooked. But for me, like, I know that when I show up and take care of, my relationship, my life just gets better. and the research shows that as well, like Harvard's longest study. tells us that it's not the money. It's not the career. It's not the things. It's not the fame. It is the quality of your relationship that impacts the quality of your life and literally the quality of your health as you age. so for me, all of those things are investments. And I, I adore this man. I, I love him wholeheartedly and I want us to have a really long, healthy, happy, thriving life together. Um, and what is more important than that? It's my life. Yeah. Awesome. I think, I think one of the key things, that we've really kind of solidified throughout this journey of having the podcast is that the two of us and our relationship, really is the foundation for our life and having the stability and certainty within our relationship. allows us to navigate a lot more variety or uncertainty in other areas of our life. As an example, um, Sammy was talking about her,, career decision back in 2019 when she was feeling burnt out and that she decided to, Just leave her job without a clear plan,, for the future. And I think it was, the stability and certainty within our relationship that allowed her to do that,, that we had the trust between ourselves that we were solid. We knew we would navigate through this, we were in it together, and therefore we could deal with that uncertainty and deal with it as a problem. But the two of us against the problem. So I think that's been a key, key kind of driver in our relationship and has helped us from a happiness standpoint as well that, yeah, that we, we know that we're in this together, we can navigate tough things together, and having the underlying kind of level of stability, but also happiness in our relationships allows that level of uncertainty in other areas. Yeah, that's great. And, you know, one of my mentors, Stan Tacken, talks about a relationship. It's helped with survival, right? And his kind of thing is like, life is hard. and you two are in it together. He has an analogy of the foxhole together. And he talks about,, you want to take care of that, right? Because you're exactly what you two are talking about. You're going to be better in your other roles, whether that's career, you know, daughter, parent, whatever that is. And another term we say, it's Taking care of the relationship is in my own self interest. Yeah. Yeah. So it's kind of taking care of yourself in a way, we learned this, like, I don't know, this is maybe not the, the one thing that, um, insight from Stan Tatkin, but I think it was him that I learned that, You shouldn't have conversations with your person while they're in your peripheral vision because of our, the way that our, reptilian brain is still wired to think that anything that's outside in that wide, um, spectrum. So we, I, we adapted and was like, okay, we don't have those kinds of big conversations while we're like driving in the car because we're both sitting in each other's car. periphery. It's not safe. It's not a safe, um, space. Was that Stan Tuckin's teaching? Yeah. Yeah. He did a, I think it's part of his Ted talk, but yeah, not important conversations, like that way. Cause he was like, glances, you know, it can be threatening and that's interesting. but also I think, the importance of. Facing each other like his theory is that we're kind of like visual animals I think he would say and if we're having a conversation face to face eye to eye, you know, eye contact is intimacy It's another way to connect and sometimes it can be challenging, right? But he also says that face to face eye to eye. He calls it error. Correct like e r r o r, correct? You know, if we're facing our partner and maybe we say something, we can connect that error in real time. Right. Unlike a text, you text someone like, Hey, what's up? It's like, Hey, why are you mad at me? I'm not mad at you. Right. Like we don't know, we don't have enough information via text. Maybe not the best analogy, but not enough data points. Yeah, he doesn't have data, and so that's what he recommends, the face to face, eye to eye, but yeah, right on, like, Stan, I've definitely heard him say that. Mmm, but just curious,, and I know we're coming up on time, I feel like,, you two have, so much cool stuff to share, but what about conflict, you know? I look at, collaboration, harmony as a way to mitigate conflict, right. As a way to work on, be proactive against resentment and disconnection. But, um, I don't know, do you guys have like a means to handle. It's funny that you ask this because on Valentine's Day, a couple days ago, we were having chats about like the beginning of our relationship and the things that we really needed to learn. And Nathan and I fought so much in that first year. Like, I think that was probably, like, one of the most turbulent years of our relationship was the first one. We were, like, trying to figure stuff out, and we were already in love, and we were already so committed, and it was like, how are we going to make this work? Because it's like, all this stuff. But then probably after that year, we probably entered a chapter of, like, almost, like, artificial harmony,, where we never fought. We proudly wear that badge of like, we don't fight, we never fight. and I think in retrospect, that was probably both of us so afraid that if we raised concerns or provided feedback that we would rock the perfect ship and maybe we wouldn't handle it. so we've definitely had to learn how to do conflict. And I think, in the beginning I was probably. Too harsh, too abrupt, too direct with some feedback for Nath, and then Nath would take that, personally, not as a invitation to,, improve, or to grow, Yeah, so there's definitely been, like, learnings around when we're raising things, opportunities with each other, it's not a question of your self worth, it's like, I love you and I love us, and then our relationship could be even better if, you Like ABC, but I think a lot of it has been about taking like learning to take ownership and accountability and responsibility for like our part in whatever the conflict is, but we are far better at it now than, we have been, and I think we will continue to get better at it. I think One of the gifts of having been together through,, quite a few chapters of life, like, you know, early 20s,, finishing uni, finishing our studies, getting our first kind of, like, grown up jobs, and then, you know, more mature adulthood, I guess, and, you know, buying assets and talking about long term wealth and all of that sort of stuff. Like we, we've had the, gift of growing through those stages together., and those different stages have required, you know, Different versions of us and the way that we show up for like to do that conflict. But I think now when we have conflict, it doesn't leak into other areas of our life. Like it doesn't, the cloud doesn't hang around. we kind of have the conversation. Take any time or space that we need, come back, and we're now really good at doing the retrospect on that conversation, like, how do you feel we handled that? Like, what did you learn about that? And we can now do that really effectively without getting back into the conflict. We really can just look at it from a helicopter without Wow. reentering the tension. Yeah. And I think the little practice that we talked about before as well of our weekly check ins, to kind of let the air out of the balloon on those little things that, that may have, yeah, rubbed me the wrong way, so I think that in itself, is helping to. Prevent some of the bigger conflicts, but it's also strengthened our muscle around leaning into some of those less comfortable conversations. it was a pretty uncomfortable practice when we first started, but it's become a lot, lot easier to raise that., and I think the key thing about conflict is it's very challenging to resolve an issue when you're in the heat of the moment. Sometimes you do need to step away. And I think that's what our weekly check in chat has really given us the opportunity to do that. We're not in the heat of the moment. We can raise something in a safe space where we know that we're present with each other. We've got each other's attention where we're in the place where we're willing to give and receive feedback. I think trying to set up that, that safe space to raise any issues or conflicts, has been a game changer for us too. Yeah. And I think just kind of knowing you'll have the space because I, my take, it's like, and what you two were talking about, I don't want to rock the boat and it's sometimes a dilemma. And I think for us some of us kind of like avoidant type, right? It's like, do I want to bring this up now? Do I want to rock the bow? Is this legitimate? I don't want to stuff things. Right. But just having that check in set, I think can be really important. I think for both partners, you know, right now I want to tell you how bad you suck, but I'm going to get a little perspective, slow down, take a deep breath, and then we'll talk about it in our check in meeting. And that's great. I really like to coach couples on having that. Yeah. And there's nothing worse than, like we were talking about before, like sitting in the car, driving to a friend's place or something and, and having a conflict when you're, when you're sitting next to each other, not eye to eye and things like that. And you're getting all heated up and, you get to the other end and you sit in the car and go, we're going to go in now. And, you know, Uh, and then you go inside and you're playing all happy families and yet you give each other daggers across the room, like, nobody wants to be doing that. So if, there is the opportunity, it robs you, it robs you of the, where you are and the, yeah. Yeah. So if there is the opportunity to be able to maybe just park the conflict, knowing that you've got the safe space in a day or two to be able to bring it up, and maybe you're no longer in the heat of the moment and you can, reflect on your part in that conflict as well, or whether there's anything you could do better. we've definitely learned some tricks around dealing with conflict along the way. Yeah. Yeah. I think one of my biggest,, insights about, like, fighting with you, Nath, is, like, you process things a lot slower than I do, like, I, I'm, like, move, move quite quickly. Into solution space. Yeah, whereas, like, and I've learned that that's not helpful, and recognizing that if we are, leaving each other in the middle of a conflict or an argument, like setting up the parameters of I need to take a walk or I need to step away or whatever. And that like giving. One another permission for that to be okay and not have that trigger like any kind of abandonment of like, oh, my God, they're leaving and just recognizing that we do do conflict differently. And we do have different needs in that conflict. Like, I think, nate's primary love language is touch, so like, if he feels me like, physically, put space between us, that's actually,, quite hurtful and quite harmful, more so than maybe it would affect some other people, but even just those little things about like, okay, I, I don't want to touch you right now. I'm in a,, fight or flight or flood stage. the last thing I feel like, but that I've learned just how that's not helping me or us, to really resolve it. and I think one of our core learnings, like particularly that we've, we've talked about this on date forever podcast quite a bit is that the Gottman's, For horsemen of the apocalypse, like criticism, contempt, defensiveness and stonewalling and recognizing like, which one is our, our go to, which one was our parents go to, like, how has that been modeled to us? What would we like to do differently?, And it's not like you're trying to rewire your brain to have different patterns and neural pathways. It's not necessarily easy and it's not going to happen,, with like one attempt. But yeah, I think having the awareness of, of what is happening,, is really, really helpful. You to have an understanding And empathy for each other, right? and I think that's important like understanding how you two are wired so we don't take things personally, right? But I also want to pause Do you two like coach couples? Like do you I mean, I know like your podcast does but do you like? coaching or things like that, how can, if someone wants to get your advice, your relationship advice, like follow the podcast or, you know, what's, yeah. so I do some one on one coaching and you can get access to, to me., Sammy Jaeger. com, is my home on the internet. And you'll find, one on one coaching services listed there. I like to,, have conversations with people about creating a really beautiful, intentional fueled up life around those eight fuel tanks with your romantic relationship being one of them. I'll definitely put a link in the show notes for that and a link to your podcast as well. Yeah. Yeah. Jason, thank you so much for having us. It's been such a cool chat. It's sometimes nice to reflect on our own relationship and what we're doing. yeah, we normally, we are, asking the questions, so it's nice to be on the receiving end. Yeah. Well, great. Well, you two are lovely, you know, like, I'm not trying to sound weird, but you two are a lovely couple. Um, keep it up. Thank you. We got the stamp of approval from a relationship therapist. That's good. Like I sit in this chair all day and I see some, uh, People not doing so hot. Um, and they're in pain. Dysfunction, right? Yeah. Yeah. But also just want to highlight the opposite of it too. That's why I asked, you know, relationship and happiness too. If you work on that, it's just dividends, right? Like you feel better in a way like you're, you're happier. Yeah, so much so. And if you do have children, isn't that one of the best gifts that you can give your children is to model to them a healthy, happy relationship. And that won't happen if it's at the bottom of the list. Yeah, for sure. Well, um, quick question. I mentioned this, you know, being passive aggressive. That's, you know, my old style, right? Would you ever throw out, um, Hey, you know, maybe you should listen to episode number 41 because you're doing that thing. Do you ever use that with each other? Uh, maybe not too much with each other, but, uh, sometimes we'll be walking around like in the street and observe other people in our environment. And we'll be like, Oh, they need to listen to this episode. No, but we do maybe, maybe not, um, specifics to like, go back and listen to this one, but we do. reference things that we've learned a lot. Like Adam Lane Smith taught us about vasopressin. And what happens when you problem solve together as a couple. And it really helped us realize like, Oh, wow. When we were traveling so much in our early twenties, we were creating this beautiful new shared experience, but we were also building. this incredible problem solving skills and trust and vasopressin. And I had, I never heard about that. So now we sometimes when we're tackling something hard, it's like, okay, vasopressin building opportunity. And nice, right. So again, it's approaching it from a collaborative standpoint. And I think really important. Sammy and Nathan, this is awesome. Thank you so much for taking the time, especially from Sydney and enjoy the rest of your summer. Um, and again, thank you so much. I really appreciate this. You're so welcome. No worries. Thank you, Jason. Um, Jason, if I can just share one other resource that couples might find helpful is, we documented our agenda for our annual game plan. So if a couple wants to go and have that sort of one or two day deep dive into their goal setting and things, feel free to grab it. It's totally free. Um, so it's at sammyjager. com forward slash AGP., it's just like a guide. It's got some questions in there. It's got some agenda,, topic points., And it'll help you, yeah, set up, um, for a successful conversation. So cool. I am so glad you heard that interview with the lovely couple Sammy and Nathan. And if this podcast has been helpful for you, please give us a review And Sherif with someone who may benefit. Thank you so much for listening.